> Forums Index > NEW 1000 AD > Changes/Suggestions > Feeding Rules
Author Topic: Feeding Rules (19 messages, Page 1 of 1)
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Administrator
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Posted: Aug 23, 2010 11:50 AM          Msg. 1 of 19
Any ideas how to improve that please post in here.

Temujin
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Posted: Sep 11, 2010 12:05 AM          Msg. 2 of 19
PM based on supply/demand. Working on it right now. :) Take out user input on prices, and everybody in the game has a fair chance at the same goods on PM.
Pretty hard though, so I am thinking the demand part of the equation will be based on a formula of expectation rather than players actually requesting something. So the user input on the price of a good, is how much is actually on PM. After that, the prices will be based on if there is too much to cover average players requirements, or not enough.

Once I get motivated I am sure there is a flowing way to get all this to happen. Just need to get it down on the spready and make a decent start on it... :)

fusional
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Posted: Sep 11, 2010 09:08 AM          Msg. 3 of 19
With a separate alliance only PM? Or are we basicallly ending alliance trading?

Temujin
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Posted: Sep 11, 2010 09:43 AM          Msg. 4 of 19
I was originally thinking a pure seperate alliance PM, but maybe the trick is to have alliance bonuses in what they can trade, as opposed to simply being able to feed.

I am not entirely sure but I doubt this is possible. What I would like is to get this supply/demand system working, and then have alliance bonuses that they can trade within 40% of the PM price. Not entirely sure of the actual figure, but I think that would work. Either by creating another market for alliance only, but still using prices of PM to work out what was allowed, better yet storing it in same market, but only able to sell it to alliance members.

Equinox
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Posted: Sep 18, 2010 03:09 PM          Msg. 5 of 19
Just disallow aid an PM during protection - problem solved.

Temujin
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Posted: Sep 19, 2010 08:34 PM          Msg. 6 of 19
Quote: Just disallow aid an PM during protection - problem solved.
--- Original message by Equinox on Sep 18, 2010 03:09 PM
rotflmfao.. Problem solved? Maybe for protection. But not after that.

radikaal
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Posted: Sep 25, 2010 06:55 PM          Msg. 7 of 19
Temuijn, I like your idea.

Sales on first come, first serve principle with exception of alliance trading. You can therfor help alliance with buying from them.

Demand based on the amount of land present in game?

example 1M land in game means expected demand for food to be 1M food a day, 10M land in game means expected demand for food to be 10M food. It is a rough indicator, but it is difficult to manipulate and better then what we have?

Supply as you said, simply what is on the market.

This solution would also make it harder to "store" goods on the market at a high price.

I like it.

Temujin
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Posted: Sep 26, 2010 01:26 PM          Msg. 8 of 19
Quote: Temuijn, I like your idea.

Sales on first come, first serve principle with exception of alliance trading. You can therfor help alliance with buying from them.

Demand based on the amount of land present in game?

example 1M land in game means expected demand for food to be 1M food a day, 10M land in game means expected demand for food to be 10M food. It is a rough indicator, but it is difficult to manipulate and better then what we have?

Supply as you said, simply what is on the market.

This solution would also make it harder to "store" goods on the market at a high price.

I like it.
--- Original message by radikaal on Sep 25, 2010 06:55 PM
Yeah pretty much something like that. I think the formula would have to be a little more detailed, but yeah, based on the land in the game, if possible, only the land out of protection, and even then maybe just when say 5 people are actually out.

The problem would be the formula. Would food be based purely on land, or on rls also? I mean more fort rls, means more required food right? Ideally, I think you would have to have something like.
populationFood = land * 1.3 * .02 * 800 (based on turns?)
armyFood = totalLand * .25 * fortRls * 800 / 12 / numberPlayers * .45

This is obviously not well thought out, and I haven't done figures to see different scenarios, but this figure here, based on 20 players out, with 100 mil total land would give:
2.08 bil food + 75 bil food.
So the base figure of food required to be average would be 77.08 bil food. So if there was 200 bil food out, it would be cheap (depending on the multiplier of prices) and less than that figure would drive prices up.

I haven't thought too much about formulas obviously, but that is the basic principal, and each good would be worked out the same way. Base prices would have to be come up with, and go from there, but would be a good system if it could be worked out...

awolbriggy
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Posted: Sep 29, 2010 01:10 AM          Msg. 9 of 19
I quite like the idea - but it would greatly change the nature of the game - it isnt a subtle change, given the current "storage" uses of the PM...

I suppose it would be possible to either not be able to withdraw goods at all... but that said if you sold them when they were scarce and wanted them back when they were abundant you would make do quite well buying them later. It would an element of ecconomics to the game
Or you could have some pro-rata withdrawing system.... where purchased goods are removed from all salers in an equitable way (based on % of market share), and you could always withdraw what was left... that would mean that shrewd opperator could manipulate the mark..

Actually now that i think about it, either way, any massively dominant empire or alliance could control the markets -- but i guess they already do...

overall i think it could be a great move for introducing some more dynamicness to the game - but it needs to be well thought out....

madchild
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Posted: Jan 4, 2011 07:07 PM          Msg. 10 of 19
Supply/Demand-oriented is the way to go. I remember complaining about it way back in Standard when I owned the wine market and none sold because 100 was the lowest price I could reach, when I would have been happier with an even lower price and SOME sales.

Pharrell
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Posted: Jan 24, 2011 09:28 AM          Msg. 11 of 19
Quote: Supply/Demand-oriented is the way to go. I remember complaining about it way back in Standard when I owned the wine market and none sold because 100 was the lowest price I could reach, when I would have been happier with an even lower price and SOME sales.
--- Original message by madchild on Jan 4, 2011 07:07 PM
It is so sad to think that " owning " the wine market in Standard is your greatest accomplishment since you started playing this game back in 2002. Please just piss off and go back into the hole that you crawled out of creature.

roflmfao

he who laughs last, laughs best...

Temujin
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Posted: Oct 13, 2016 05:37 AM          Msg. 12 of 19
Any input on this?

Revisiting old ideas to improve the game, and this is high on priority. Have a very solid idea so far what I want to happen, but interested if there are any game nerds left here that can give a numerical opinion.

http://www.adersoftware.com/thegame/player_games.cfm?player=Temujin

Cyber Prince
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Posted: Oct 16, 2016 10:55 AM          Msg. 13 of 19
Quote: Any input on this?

Revisiting old ideas to improve the game, and this is high on priority. Have a very solid idea so far what I want to happen, but interested if there are any game nerds left here that can give a numerical opinion.

--- Original message by Temujin on Oct 13, 2016 05:37 AM
Tem - I know you wanted me to say something about this, or give an idea, not sure really. I don't like the idea of PM under pro for both blitz and standard, but that's just me. Strange but something "tells" me that this game is going to be big again someday in the future.

Glo/Cyber Prince/Jere/Awful/Cinnamon Stix/Asian Soup

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Temujin
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Posted: Oct 17, 2016 06:37 AM          Msg. 14 of 19
PM under pro is not on the agenda.

All about a supply/demand PM, rather than user set prices. Prices determined on a supply/demand basis, through game code.
Not in pro.

http://www.adersoftware.com/thegame/player_games.cfm?player=Temujin

Temujin
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Posted: Oct 17, 2016 06:39 AM          Msg. 15 of 19
Quote:
Quote: Temuijn, I like your idea.

Sales on first come, first serve principle with exception of alliance trading. You can therfor help alliance with buying from them.

Demand based on the amount of land present in game?

example 1M land in game means expected demand for food to be 1M food a day, 10M land in game means expected demand for food to be 10M food. It is a rough indicator, but it is difficult to manipulate and better then what we have?

Supply as you said, simply what is on the market.

This solution would also make it harder to "store" goods on the market at a high price.

I like it.
--- Original message by radikaal on Sep 25, 2010 06:55 PM
Yeah pretty much something like that. I think the formula would have to be a little more detailed, but yeah, based on the land in the game, if possible, only the land out of protection, and even then maybe just when say 5 people are actually out.

The problem would be the formula. Would food be based purely on land, or on rls also? I mean more fort rls, means more required food right? Ideally, I think you would have to have something like.
populationFood = land * 1.3 * .02 * 800 (based on turns?)
armyFood = totalLand * .25 * fortRls * 800 / 12 / numberPlayers * .45

This is obviously not well thought out, and I haven't done figures to see different scenarios, but this figure here, based on 20 players out, with 100 mil total land would give:
2.08 bil food + 75 bil food.
So the base figure of food required to be average would be 77.08 bil food. So if there was 200 bil food out, it would be cheap (depending on the multiplier of prices) and less than that figure would drive prices up.

I haven't thought too much about formulas obviously, but that is the basic principal, and each good would be worked out the same way. Base prices would have to be come up with, and go from there, but would be a good system if it could be worked out...
--- Original message by Temujin on Sep 26, 2010 01:26 PM
Something along these lines.

http://www.adersoftware.com/thegame/player_games.cfm?player=Temujin

Temujin
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Posted: Oct 20, 2016 06:43 AM          Msg. 16 of 19
Current Blltz.

Land Food 1
4,000.00 13 20
160,000.00 12.38095238 21
320,000.00 11.79138322 22.05
640,000.00 11.22988878 23.1525
1,280,000.00 10.69513217 24.310125
2,560,000.00 10.18584016 25.52563125
5,120,000.00 9.700800156 26.80191281
10,240,000.00 9.238857292 28.14200845
20,480,000.00 8.798911706 29.54910888
40,960,000.00 8.379915911 31.02656432
81,920,000.00 7.980872296 32.57789254
163,840,000.00 7.600830758 34.20678716

Standard food prices on local market.

10 players out of pro.
303,447,559 total land in game.
92 fort rls

My calcs have base price for PM at 19.17.

From there, my calcs show 49,862,502,895 food total on PM for average price.

If there is more, the PM price will be lower. Less, will be higher.

Say 100 billion food, PM price would be 15.97.
200 billion food, PM price would be 13.68.

This is with a very conservative base of 10.
Change that to 5
100 billion 13.68
200 billion 10.64

Right now my calcs are based on the ratio against food. Not going through the full calcs. Assuming the figures quoted, are to be as balanced as possible. Not trying to reinvent the wheel here, just looking at a different way of PM.

eg Iron 5.5 more expensive than food, so would be taken into account.

Got local market prices, based on the same formulas, for all weapons, and horses, based on their costs to make.
Wine, needs to be worked out, but have it starting at cost 100 for the test game.

Have the formulas in place where weapons/wine/horses take into account having army up about 25% of the time.

Could easily add in all resources straight into the local market.

Would be looking at a commission style sales process, where all goods are considered equal. eg if you have food on 1% of food on PM, and 1 billion food is bought, your sales would be 1% of that, regardless of batch size, or when you put it on.
But then, I don't code, so not sure how easy that would be to implement.
The rest of it, is simple formulas, based on information readily available in the code anyway, just a matter of tweaking the numbers.

Not sure making everything available all resources on local market, but can easily use the formulas to work out the PM price. Would like to see wine on the local market though.

Obviously without the formulas, hard for anybody to give an opinion. But trying to twist Charles's arm to spend some time on it, and see what the drawbacks are.

PM used as warehouses not really the way things should go. And yes supply/demand is somewhat at play, but how many times are you trying to sell something, and go to war with one other player, bring your food all the way in from 30, 28, 26, 24, 22, 20, 18, 16, then it sells, and prices go straight back to 30, due simply to when somebody ran.

Market manipulation can still happen, as the bigger players flooding the market, will dictate the price everybody sells at. They can afford a lower price. Timing of runs is not important, as your goods sell, as quickly as anybody elses.
Barbs can run off local market, and don't need to fluff around parking thief armies, and hoping all their wine sells 1 hour before they run.

I like it. Think it is pretty simple to set up. Just a matter of working out the right numbers.

And since nobody else really likes to talk any more, probably down to the opinion of Charles who would be doing the leg work for me.

Anybody?

http://www.adersoftware.com/thegame/player_games.cfm?player=Temujin

Cyber Prince
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Posted: Oct 20, 2016 08:04 AM          Msg. 17 of 19
I used to play this other game where they also have a public market and you can sell things on it, etc, very similar to 1000 AD just smaller numbers. Anyway, when you sent things to the public market, the PM would decide @ what price to put your resources at. Not sure if this ties in with what you are talking about but just putting it out there. Also, players could "auto bid" on whatever they felt like. Say for instance you're going to bed but are desperate for food - you could "pre order" X amount of food (300+ million or w/e) and exactly what price you are willing to buy it for - 15+, 20+, 25+, etc. and as soon as (Any) amount of food hits the PM @ your price range (say you are willing to spend between 18 and 30 or w/e) it automatically gets purchased and you get the food, other player gets the gold. I definitely like that games PM better, especially since I don't really use the PM much at all past few times I have played.

Glo/Cyber Prince/Jere/Awful/Cinnamon Stix/Asian Soup

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Mimic
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Posted: Jan 16, 2017 07:52 PM          Msg. 18 of 19
I like the idea of the supply demand markets it will also make the aid function more relevant because you want be able to choose to sell goods at min to help others out (even if they are in the same alliance). It will also stop the PM being used as additional warehouse space.

Temujin
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Posted: May 20, 2017 01:48 AM          Msg. 19 of 19
Here is the current state of request. Possibly doesn't mean too much to anybody without question, but bring it on.....



OK. To try and summarise where we are at and where we need to go moving forward.

The PMSTATS page is a very good place to stick to for now.
Essentially, the major issues firstly, are creating a dynamic market with 1 batch of each type of goods for each player.

So then on the market page, will essentially look very similar to what the PMSTATS already is.
Instead of having 2,000 batches of food, every batch will add to the total of that good you have.

On the PM page, you have the option of withdrawing, so will need an input box and an option to withdraw or buy.

All goods will need to have their own local price. Swords etc. Whatever resource whether it is available on local, needs to have that base price. At the moment, I have simply added up the resources required and totalled the cost to get that base price. Wine I have started at 100.
Need a new variable that will be average land. This will total the land in game, and average it out of all players out of protection. Total land is already able to be called, just a matter of counting players out of protection, working out average land.
Then as well as working out local prices for each player, it will have a game local prices. pmBasePrice, will then simply be (local buy + local sell)/2.

Then using the players, we have another variable, called fortAverage. Total fort rls, divided by players.

We also have ratios for each good, based on base local prices, as all calcs are essentially based off food.
eg
Food 1 Iron 4.010025063 Wood 2.005012531 Tools 8.020050125 Swords 100.2506266 Bows 50.12531328 Horses 100 Pikes 48.12030075 Maces 36.09022556 XBows 46.11528822 Wine 5.012531328
19.95 19.95 PMBASE 80 80 40 40 160 160 2000 2000 1000 1000 1995 1995 960 960 720 720 920 920 100 100
Hasn’t transferred well, but that first part, shows iron ratio is 4.01, or 80/19.95. Wood 40/19.95 or 2.01, etc etc. All base prices are shown in the second part, and easy to match up.
Food 19.95
Iron 80
Wood 40
Tools 160
Swords 2000
Bows 1000
Horses 1995
Pikes 960
Maces 720
Xbows 920
Wine 100

Once we have all that:
We then have a food base, which is popFood + armyFood
popFood=totalLand*turns(1500 for test, etc)*1.3*.02
armyFood=popFood*.125*fortAverage*turns/12/playersOutOfProtection*.45
foodBaseGoods=popFood+armyFood
Then we have calcs for each of the goods:
ironBaseGoods=popFood/ironRatio(which was 4.01)
woodBaseGoods=popFood/woodRatio
toolsBaseGoods=popFood/toolsRatio
swordsBaseGoods=foodBase/swordsRatio/7/4
bowsBaseGoods=foodBase/bowsRatio/7/4
horsesBaseGoods=foodBase/horsesRatio/7/4
pikesBaseGoods=foodBase/pikesRatio/7/4
macesBaseGoods=foodBase/macesRatio/7/4
xbowsBaseGoods=foodBase/xbowsRatio/7/4
wineBaseGoods=foodBase/wineRatio/4

From there, we need to compare all baseGoods with what is on the PM, and create a price based on the ratio, and the PMBasePrice:

Firstly, define a divisor. At the moment I have it set at 4. This is to work out the ratio, to manipulate the price.
divisor = 4
foodPriceDivisor = if((totalPmFood/foodBaseGoods)>1 THEN (totalPmFood/foodBaseGoods)/divisor+1 ELSE
(foodBaseGoods/totalPmFood)/divisor+1

foodPmPrice = if((totalPmFood/foodBaseGoods)>1 THEN
(foodBasePmPrice/foodPriceDivisor) ELSE
(foodBasePmPrice*foodPriceDivisor)
Obviously these two calcs could be put into one longer formula.

Once you do that last step for all goods, then we have a PM price for all goods on the PM based on supply and demand.

I feel all those variables will be needed, and any tweaking can simply be done on the values assigned.

http://www.adersoftware.com/thegame/player_games.cfm?player=Temujin
 

 

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