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Author Topic: Rebalance list (10 messages, Page 1 of 1)
Moderators: DR

DR
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Posted: Jan 1, 2012 07:34 PM          Msg. 1 of 10
List of rebalances (I think) that should go in.

General changes. conservative
Pikeman + 1 defense (zulus lose +1 defense) , - 1 training time all (zulus lose bonus)
Franks: No fort minus, lose archer bonus
Turks: +2 hunter -> + 1 (if not done)
Mongols: -1 archer defense
Byz: gold bonus -> +80-90, lose extra explorer cost (this needs the land conversion first)
Incas: iron mines don't cost extra land
Wine doesn't cost gold to make.

weapon cost rebalance
http://www.new1000ad.com/forums/index.cfm?page=topic&topicID=283
(needs discussion)

mountain conversion
http://www.new1000ad.com/forums/index.cfm?page=topic&topicID=132
recommended 1:1 conversion with range between 3-11% all civs.

General changes. riskier (assume above all included).
PM cost rebalance
http://www.new1000ad.com/forums/index.cfm?page=topic&topicID=284
(needs discussion)

zulus: pikeman keep -1 training time, but get an eco nerf, reduced special unit training time, can train swordsman, swordsman -0.5/1 attack.
Horseman: -1 month training time (turks stay at 6 turns)
horses: base horse production cost down to 80 food.
Mongols: can use macemen, - 1 cl for mongol macemen
Japs: a fort bonus of some kind, +1 army?
Incas: reduced training cost for shaman (gold), reduced shaman losses in combat, reduced magetower construction gold cost, reduced construction cost for all buildings (great wall included)
Franks, all units increased cl, maybe a flat *1.1-1.2 taken in battles
Wine on local trade: constant cost of 500-800 (not sure how much) buy and 80 sell (60 for barbs).
Edited by DR on Jan 1, 2012 at 07:37 PM

Mighty Mouse
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Posted: Jan 2, 2012 02:02 AM          Msg. 2 of 10
"Franks: No fort minus, lose archer bonus" - I think the franks should have a minus on the forts in exchange for the added defense of archers. If you take away the minus in the forts and the plus in defense, they come out to the same amount of defense, but it will cost a frank more with your way and take longer to put up army, it is already better for them to use towers, why completely take away the idea of using archers.

"Turks: +2 hunter -> + 1 (if not done)" - As long as they have a negative on exploring and population increase, they should have the +2 food on hunters.

"Mongols: -1 archer defense" - "Horseman, Swordsman and Archers have -1 attack point", this is because of the added fort space, which means they should all 3 get one less defense as well. I agree.

"Byz: gold bonus -> +80-90, lose extra explorer cost (this needs the land conversion first)" - Unsure, but I dont like it, and it really depends on what type of change comes with the mountains.

"Wine doesn't cost gold to make." - Only agree if it is only applied to Barbs

"Horseman: -1 month training time (turks stay at 6 turns)" - No, it should stay how it is, because you can use them as both your attacking and defending unit.

"horses: base horse production cost down to 80 food." - Again, just like the wine with the Barbs, this would just help every other civ besides Japs, and turks.

"Japs: a fort bonus of some kind, +1 army?" - Agreed, +1 army, as well as +1 cl on all units. except for pikeman and/or macemen.

"Incas: reduced training cost for shaman (gold), reduced shaman losses in combat, reduced magetower construction gold cost, reduced construction cost for all buildings (great wall included)" - Honestly, with them, reduce the need to use gold, therefore they do need gold for anything, but at the same time, it would take away from buying wine or making gold on the local market

"Wine on local trade: constant cost of 500-800 (not sure how much) buy and 80 sell (60 for barbs)." - Again,this should only be made as an exception to barbs... only allow barbs to sell wine on local, but no civ can buy wine on local. and selling it at the same price as iron +10, with score increase.

Ken

Mighty Mouse
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Posted: Jan 2, 2012 02:03 AM          Msg. 3 of 10
everything else i agree with as stated

Ken

DR
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Posted: Jan 2, 2012 05:40 PM          Msg. 4 of 10
I would actually suggest maybe franks have a tower construction bonus (eg less iron/wood).
The reason is, with a fort minus, franks can only explore to get land, attacking is simply not worth the trouble. If you remove that though, their archers are way too strong. Since you should encourage franks to use towers to defend, their current bonuses + maybe one more to towers is sufficient. The changes actually allow an attacking frank to become viable, particularly with a cl buff to counteract their research minus.

I'd only suggest archers losing a def point, the change is a significant nerf on mongols, and other ones just run the risk of absolute death, rather than a high chance.

The base horse production means that horses would be at 40 for turks, and 53 for japs. So their bonus advantage is still intact. The main pusher for this is to make it easier to use horsemen if not turk. Their price is still very high though and in addition to their high training cost it basically means a person has to make a dedicated commitment to a horseman strat if they want to use them. The problem is simply horses are so expensive, but play an important part in the exploration phase. I suppose if you adjusted the numbers so horses are cheaper to produce, but the same equivalent food is used in exploring with horses it would be fine.

Incas really should be a civ that doesn't use gold for anything except buying goods. I don't think it takes away from buying wine or using local at all.

With wine on local, it comes down to a barb shouldn't be essential (like mongols), but rather like a very effective economic multiplier. A team without a mongol will always lose to a team with one. Similar case for barb. The cost of not having a mongol is over 6x if the mongol has 200 w/t if you have enough iron (pure translation cost). If you have to sell on local (given the amount of resources involved to make swords you probably will), that cost goes over 18x.
That economic cost is why any civ that needs all swords is crippled without a mongol.

The cost of not having a barb with only 50 wine rls and wine being worth 200 and using a civ that only has eco 50 rls to make wine is 3 x. If that civ has actually 200 rls (non wine of course), the cost of producing wine from them is 6 x. If that barb actually has 200 wine rls, well then values are 6x and 12 x respectively, if you put the value of wine at 400, well you get the idea. Or simply put, a viking with 250 food rls, selling it at 15 on pm, would be more than breaking even buying wine at a price of 680.

Wine is never as important as weapons, but it is so expensive that simply put, it is crap. 500 as a max price is too high.

DR
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Posted: Jan 6, 2012 11:13 PM          Msg. 5 of 10
Franks: (fresh start)
cl *1.1-1.2 for all
All units also get another defense bonus, like archers.

Goldmines: Only 4 land instead of 6 (minor, one day more work).

Aid gold, can send *100-1000 markets rather than market number.

Local market stops decreasing in price after 45-50% price change from original.
Edited by DR on Jan 6, 2012 at 11:32 PM

DR
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Posted: Jan 21, 2012 03:41 PM          Msg. 6 of 10
Special units in general have a 25% casualty rate compared to normal units, some civs, eg. zulu will have a higher casaulty rate. Probably up the bonuses for quite a few special units.

DR
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Posted: Jan 21, 2012 04:02 PM          Msg. 7 of 10
Turks, get back iron bonus, hunters only 2 fpt, rather than 2.5.
Farms +1 food. (So 9 food instead of 7)

radikaal
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Posted: Jan 22, 2012 03:16 AM          Msg. 8 of 10
First of good to look into some rebalancing.
Second start with those who needs it most and see how it goes.
Third pay attention that you not only upgrade the slowrunner, but downgrade the fastrunners.

In my opinion Top 2 civilisations are
Mongol
Turk

Flop 2 Civilisations are
Inca
Byzantine

Now on your ideas:
1)Pikeman, not sure what the advantage would be, but impact probably low.
2)Franks, be careful not them to strong. They will explore out of pro, have a good land lead on most and then put up an fighting army. They can hold the top with this. I think to balance that you should keep there defense slightly below average if they put up an army.
3)Turk reduction, good idea.
4)Mongol reduction, good idea.
5)Be careful with upgrading this civilisation. As discussed previously there problem is the mountains later in the game. I think it is unwise to remove the extra explorer cost. I think they will easily be the strongest coming out of pro. (If I play, I would play Byzantine with this change, you wouldn't even need to make the changes in mountains anymore.)
6)Incas, good idea. maybe give the another small bonus. not sure though don't know Incas real well.

Weapon rebalance, see my ideas there. Summary: don't.
Mountain conversion, same. But shortly: give it a try, better then nothing.
All other changes, premature. First see about making changes 3,4,6 and Mountain conversion. Then re-evaluate.

New Frank idea Cl up and more defense bonus on Units.
I like this much better presuming that they don't get the fortminus take away. (I like this changes, would make an attacking Frank a better option, still pay attention to Huge start then domination. But you'll see when you try. Difficult to really predict.)

Mighty Mouse
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Posted: Feb 2, 2013 02:52 AM          Msg. 9 of 10
We need a Test game for this, and only allow veterans (ie, people who know the game pretty well and do well, most vets are obvious). maybe have it set up like standard with 320 turns but only last 3 weeks, but this is more for you get 10-15 people and have them try various civs out with the various changes (well always good idea to get a few people who always play franks and exploring japs just for the obvious factor).

Ken
 

 

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